28 jui 2015
Blackhawks de Chicago
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>Okay, having read that, lot of great points you made! I do like what you have to say. However, I will make a few counter arguments. First is the future of centermen. I’d say that as long as mcdavid stays mcdavid, and players like turcotte and zegras develop into who they’re suppose to be, it could continue. I’d maybe throw Brayden point in the argument too. However, as a whole, yes I do think you may be right about true 200 foot centers being the norm. As for our history of scoring centers, your dead on that toews really wasn’t one either. However, we did have a modano comparable back in the day by the name Roenick. God I miss him! Tough as nails and could score 50 a year. We also had denis savard around that time too. However, yes, beyond those two, Mikita is the only one that comes to mind. I do agree, wingers very much have driven the offense for us in a way. Toews definitely does seem a little out of sorts off the puck sometimes, but I do think his style is more of a probing style. He waits for the mistakes, especially on the outside. If the play moves to the inside, I feel like he does take some more initiative. But by and large, I tend to agree with the toews assessment. What kills me about toews now too is that in the beginning, people needed to sell me on his skating, cuz I didn’t like it. Nowadays, he does seem to be slowing down more and more.
Now for the one part i have to respectfully disagree with you on. Dach in front the net. I do agree that in theory those dmen wouldn’t move him. But here’s the rub: dach is not known for his net front presence. In fact, in the WHL by and large he was known for staying outside and using his hands. That’s what I mean when I say he doesn’t know how to use his size. That could always change with the hawks, but he’s very inexperienced in front of the net in juniors. He does shield the puck well, albeit against guys at least 4 inches shorter than him. Who knows how he looks against guys his own size.
Good input though, I do hope he grows to use his size. In fact,
At 6’4’’, I’d be ecstatic he grew into a lemieux type player. Obviously a lot to ask, but I’ve always rated lemieux as better than Gretzky (please don’t jump on me for that one). And remember, lemieux wasn’t exactly a net front player either, but man did he make everything else work! Guy can dream right?</div></div>
Great convo and 1 tourney doesn't make/break a player. I'd just say look at Dach's positioning more so than results...despite actually getting good results. It's where Dach is when he gets his points in the summer showcase and development camp. I know I know,..that's the same 2 things I've been drumming on, but different teams ask of players to do different things. The Blades ask him to be everything under the sun. As for team Canada, his passing to/from Veleno...His rebound pick up from Alexis? Working inside the circles in the blue paint...to me the net front presence the Hawks need. More than just Toews at least. Shaw has it...and when Saad wants to...he has it, but (transitioning now) tying into the lines...that's why I really want to see that line put together inside 9 games.
***EDIT*** good point on Roenick...brain fart, but I forgot! lol
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>Okay, let’s put this in perspective. I’m not the problem. I’ve disliked a lot of players this team has had and they’ve proved me wrong many times. It is a case of me just having to wait and see, of course. My problem this time is that they reached on 3 OA. At different times I disliked Shaw, saad, seabrook (pre decline), and I just get the sense this is a sign the hawks refuse to evolve. That’s just my opinion. And to my initial question, NOBODY can sell me on this kid. People did sell me on Shaw and seabrook, saad was tougher. You talk about hurdles? What hurdles? Prospect camp and showcase? Okay fair enough, but if he didn’t score 100% at minimum in either as a 3 OA, that’s a problem. But don’t think because he beat up on lesser prospects and was on a stacked Canada team means I’m gonna be amazed. Those were nice low hurdles that hopefully built his confidence.
Lastly, don’t patronize and make it sound like I’m the only one hard on this kid, much less make a ridiculous 130 point theoretical. I know your just making a point, but I do actually take pride in saying what I do with information, stats, and observations I actually see. Not hurdles that were made for him to clear. So again exo, if you actually can, sell me, I’m all ears and I’m always easy to persuade. It may not seem like it, but as long as someone actually gives information and rationalizations, I’m all ears. ChiHawk is one of the best at getting my attention in debate. I’m not criticizing you, just don’t be so fast to criticize me for an opinion. I like debate, and good ones happen here. I respect how you feel about dach and hope I’m wrong. But this guy may either define a transition, or contribute to a greater downfall. Suffice to say he scares me how much a wild card he is.
So again, sell buddy, if you can. Use information like some others try to on here. Statistics and observations maybe, cuz I promise I’m not gonna criticize your argument. I’ll just debate.</div></div>
That's fair. AND I do need to give you A LOT of credit. You provide SOLID back up to your points and I like that you don't back down. I do enjoy conversing with you!
***EDIT*** wanted to send that out quickly before I continued.
FO% statistically speaking is a VERY small part of the game. Lots of tremendous players are terrible at faceoffs. McDavid is the most notable. I understand he played wing to Veleno with team Canada, but Veleno is his senior and Dach appropriately yielded his position to his senior. As for the Hawks as a team not progressing their system to the future. Dmen are getting smaller and smaller...why not have someone bigger in front of the net? Do you think Dahlin or Heisk or Charlie Mac can move Dach...heck no. I don't know if having a scoring center is necessarily the future either. I honestly can't remember the last time they had a scoring center. Even before Toews...they're an inside out team. The centermen is a 200' center that does the dirty work. Zeus, AA, Kruger, Richards...although Richards in his prime might have debunked what I'm saying. That's just how they play. Their wingers do all the scoring. Havlat, Daze, Amonte. It's not like they've ever really had (recent history) a Modano, Stamkos, or Petterson who are score first mentality centermen. I don't think he's lazy either. Even Toews often times doesn't look like he's giving every single stride his maximum effort but there's typically a reason for it. Dach wasn't my 1st choice. He may not even play well in Traverse City...IDK. BUT he hasn't played poorly yet...and I'd be perfectly fine with him going back to the Blades to continue to refine his game.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>HatterTParty</b></div><div>Okay, so I gotta ask all the loyalists out there to finally give me a concrete answer. What’s so great about dach??? Number one, not a center, he’s a winger. Need proof: he lacks drive and is too lazy, his faceoff numbers are absolutely horrendous (41.2% in the WHL), and he actually lacks awareness off the puck. This guy absolutely should be a winger, and I definitely don’t trust him playing center. This is all on top of him not knowing how to use his body to maximum efficiency. He doesn’t even project to score more than 60-70 points a season, which isn’t bad, but that is bad for a 3 OA who was suppose to be a point scorer. Saad and Shaw alone can’t protect this guy. Heck, saad can’t even protect himself. I have no clue how to develop this guy, I just know he’s not an nhl player.
So please, somebody, ANYBODY, tell me what I’m missing. I’ve watched so many games on this guy and was horrified when I heard we were picking him.</div></div>
You and me specifically have been through this too many times that I can't go through it all again. The problem is you. If he scores 130 points in the NHL and wins the Calder and the Hart you'd still hate him...we've all come to realize this. Just watch him play and he's 2 for 2 in hurdles passed with grades of 100%...not even 99%...100%. He wasn't my 1st choice either. I was a Cozens guy until about April when I became a Byram guy because of Byram's ability to raise his play throughout the playoffs. You can't teach that. BUT the Hawks drafted who they draft and there isn't 1 single negative thing he's actually done since the draft. It's all been good stuff on and off the ice.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LoganOllivier</b></div><div>The whole "Dubas caves" mentality is hilariously incorrect. He won with Nylander, Matthews will be fine no matter what and he isn't caving with Marner. Ferris over reached and has lost pretty much all his leverage. Marner I predict will sign for around 10 million for 6 years. He wants 5 but TO won't allow him that contract because having Marner, Nylander and Matthews needing new contracts at the same time is insanity. If he wants less than 5 the only option is 2 or 3 years where TO won't give him close to what he wants. A shorter contract does come with risk, what if Nylander outscores him this year? What if Matthews has a massive year and Marner is the 3rd or 4th top scorer on the team?
Ferris has worked this wrong just like he did with AA in Detroit and Anderson in Columbus and as soon as the other guys start signing Marner will have to be reasonable or he's going to be moved, if he keeps asking for the moon when no one wants to pay him that much, he's going to end up losing out on a lot of money.</div></div>
I agree with a lot of what you're saying regarding Ferris, but he's far from alone there. It's a business and business is risky. Shanahan really did put it best. You're not going to remember whether you made $9M or $10M in any specific year. What you're going to remember is either winning or quite possibly regretting not having quality teammates. With that said, you're living in a dream world if you think for 1 single second that $7M a year is worth .67 ppg for a playmaking winger...the single easiest position to come by in the NHL. COULD he bounce back...absolutely, but he's done LITERALLY nothing, zilch, nada, zippo, zero in the NHL to deserve that contract to date. It's hopes and dreams that maybe will come true and maybe won't.